COVID-19 Webinar Recordings

Leadership Lessons from COVID-19: Preparing Physician Executives to Fix U.S. Healthcare

Together, we analyze examples of executive leadership during COVID-19 and summarize important takeaways for physician executives who want to positively transform the U.S. healthcare system.

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You are in for a treat. Some of our most vibrant and practice faculty, but also our honored leadership of our school are spending time with us today talking about leadership lessons from Cove it. And really this conversation of how can we look at best practices among leaders across the world and use that as lessons in health care. So I'm thrilled and honored that we get to spend the next hour with all of you who I know your time is precious, but also with ID Kasner who was dean of the Kelly School of Business and just chosen by poets and once as the Dean of the year. So it's always an honor to spend some time with her. And I'm Philip Health, who is the Associate Dean for Academic Programs here at the Indianapolis campus, teaches in the business of medicine program as does IT Kasner. So many of you who have come through the program, graduated from the program. Phil is a familiar face, so thank you both for your time today. Really appreciate this fill I'll toss it to you to get started, sir, and then I'll hand it over to our esteemed leader. But just really quick. Thanks, Susanna. This is great webinar series for those in the audience thinking about our, our program. This is, this gives a good flavor of, of our passion for training physicians to fix US healthcare. Leadership. You live and die by leadership. As you talk to any of our graduates are current students. So leadership is an important part of what we learn or an R program. And it obviously is on a, accustoming our mind in the, in the Dean's office. So we got a great session here. And I'm gonna kick it over to our Dean who's kind of the, the, the, the, the questioner here, C-C interviewer. Thanks, Phil. I get the easy job today if you well, you know what I think about Cove it and I watch what's going on there. So many leadership lessons. There's so many lessons in crisis management. And of course, in the areas that you and I teach, which are, which is the area of strategy. So I am really curious about some of your thoughts about the leadership we've seen or in some cases, lack of leadership during this crisis period, this covert period. Someone ask a few questions. And obviously I also want to talk about crisis communication and effective communication during instances like this. So let me just dive right in and start When you examples of effective leadership during covered, during this period that we've seen in its, and soon will be about a year. I'm sure you've seen examples of both good and bad leadership styles and approaches. What are some of the examples of effective executive presence that you believe lead to more successful management and leadership during crisis periods. Thanks, I know that's a question that a lot of leaders have wrestle with. Whether your physician leading a team that's overwhelmed and have too many patients and not enough PPE. Or you're CEO of a health care system or your other nation, as we'll see with some videos in a minute. Let me sort of answer this one. General, what I think what I would use as a general guide, what are some general checkpoints that I look for when, when I'm sort of evaluating leadership. Both as just a follower and just as a, as an academic. To me, ID, it comes down to, is the leader speaking to people who are they reaching that their limbic brain. And I think it's important to talk about this difference. And again, I don't want to pretend to be a brain scientist. But as, as technical, technically trained people, whether we're physicians or economists or strategy professors. We, we, we have pride that we think rationally. We live and breathe. I have proud pride that we think in our cerebral cortex. But at the end of the day, the response to crises comes from our limbic brain. And so one argument that I make is this arc and this will be a theme of so my responses a day has always seen leaders speak to that part of the brain. Because our cerebral cortex can only sort of commands at the moment. If we're feeling safe and stable and in crises, we're not. And I think, I think first and foremost, if you're a leader to, for physician leaders to the clinical environment, every minute that you're on. You have to remember too, and to people's emotional part of their brain. And and then an another framework that I like to uses. Or if you're speaking to the emotional part of the brain than you're connecting. Or at least have some such, some, some knowledge of Maslow's hierarchy of needs, right? And this is a, this is a model goes back to the 19 forties, but is a very practical way to think about where your audience is, right? I will define a crisis as an event that sort of knocks folks off whatever, whatever level they're at, right? And just a quick reminder. You had five level. They're the most fundamental were physical needs. The second would be safety. The third would be a sense of community or connection. The fourth would be, do, Do I have the self confidence that I have sort of agency here? And then the fifth is sort of the ability to actually act and part actually make the choice to behave correctly to, to, to improve the situation. So we live our lives at the top. And a crises knocks us down. And I think a good leader during a crisis is speaking to, is adjusting where they're speaking to and trying to build up people's emotions to go back up the ladder. And so again, very theoretical answer. But to sort of make this more practical, I look good or bad practice. It's good at the leader speaking to the emotional needs first of the audience. Second, are they delivering a presence that reassures, but it also effectively delivers information. About where the organization is headed and what can the individual expect and in a way that the person and listen to them. So I think those are fundamental components of judging the effectiveness of a response. We're going to put this to work in a minute with some of these videos. But does that sort of set the foundation? It's not specific, but it gives us at least a theoretical foundation to think about these things. And in a way you've also given us insight into when someone's not doing that NAC could in fact derail your leadership respond to in a crisis situation. So they're not able to reach those levels. Encouraged her, or enhance the trusting nature of their audience members, then that might be a problem and potentially derail their responses. Either Leadership insights are encoded, in your opinion, translate into lessons for physician executive leadership and physician communication. In other words, specific to how physicians communicate in situations like this. You know, again, I speak as an outsider. I'm not a physician, but somebody has taught physician MBA program for eight years. And I've done research on physician manpower studies in the literature. You know, what do you look at the leadership hierarchy and, and, and hospitals and what a, what a traditional sources of dysfunctionality. And I get our audience doesn't better than I do. But you can read about this in any review of physician leadership. There's, the traditional way to physicians lead is that they're blunt. They, they play to the cerebral cortex. They don't play the Olympic system. And they're very much about preserving the hierarchy. And do this because I'm a doctor or you're a resident and I'm a senior surgeon and you just need to do it. And so I think that what, what you learn for physician leaders, it is true what will under those leaders, a physician, you know, what we find is that physicians, whether they're leading in an operating room, whether they're leading a an integrated emergency care team. Whether you're leading a senior management team for the hospital system, right? First and foremost, ask yourself, where, whatever environment you're in, good people I work with, personally connect with me. Because you have to understand that even, even the most rational physicians, even the most rational scientists, are emotional beans, are limbic brain overtakes our cerebral cortex in the way that we relate to people. Within milliseconds, our brain is asking friend or foe, threat or safe, right? So effective physician leaders play to that brain chemistry. And in that with coded, these needs are amplified because people are panicked. They're fearful of dying. Now. That in many ways resembles what it means to treat a patient, right? So to me, the lessons for leadership, or also are the same lessons of effective bedside manner. Literature shows that if your patient connects with you emotionally and that has a beyond just this vertical doctor-patient relationship. But they have true sense that you're empathetic. Going to listen to you. And that patient is going to have a higher rate of compliance with drug, taking drugs or turn behavior that's healthy. You have to take that same mindset and apply it to leadership in the clinical environment. If you're NERC, if the nurses who work with, if the physician assistance you work with, if you're if you're resins that work with you, feel like you're empathetic to what they want and why they're there. And that you communicate in a way that they feel strong. Just like a patient comply what persuaded by what you say? Your team's gonna be persuaded by what you say. And if you've ever needed a time where a leader needed to be persuasive and generate the needed healthy behavior. It smells not just to the clinical environment, but but but, but, but, but at Washington DC. Yeah, so maybe felt we can give a few examples of this because we've seen a lot of different communication styles during this period. And some that are easy to relate to, some that are more distant. And maybe we can show a few video examples and I have you respond to that. And by the way, I just want to encourage those who are online. Now, if you have questions that you want to ask about the things that you observe in terms these videos, please be sure to submit those questions. Susanna will come in and share those questions with us and ask them of fill. Phil, I want to turn to our video examples. I think we have someone ready to play them for us. And they're just very short 50-second examples in most instances. And the first one I want to turn to is the New Zealand Prime Minister. An evening everyone. That I would jump online quickly and just chicken was even run really is we will prepare to hunker down for a few weeks. Excuse the casual attire. It's can be Missy business putting toddlers two beads are not in my work clothes, so forgive me for that. I do just want to prepay everyone that because simply the leg with carpet directing the time from someone having contact with someone who has it, catching it themselves, being symptomatic and being tasted and positive is a number of days before all of that happens. So we want to see the positive benefits of all of the, If it you're about to put in for self isolation for a lock for a few days. He had quite an quite a number of days, I'd say at least ten days. So don't be disheartened. Some film we just saw an example of a prime minister responding and interesting citizens about Ms. deadly pandemic. I'm I'm curious, what are your thoughts about what you saw in the communication style and approach that he used? Well, the first thing that should strike you is that it captures your attention because it's not what you expect. And so sometimes, you know, if, if you sort of just approved, if you, if you're a leader and you appear the way people expect you to, sometimes just kind of not listen. They're gonna shut off, you're gonna be noise, right? In respect to New Zealand Prime Minister to be speaking from the beehive and Wellington. That's their problem house. But here she captures the attention of New Zealanders in a way that you wouldn't expect. You're going, wait a minute, what this is the prime minister, she just, she sent a jumper. She just put her kids to bed. That's pretty cool. It's very, it's very disarming, right? And again, if you're the Prime Minister of New Zealand, you don't want to be every addressed to be like this. But there's a there's a, there's an acute need here. She has to reach as many New Zealanders as possible, connect with them personally. Keep it simple, keep it relatable. And define folks expectations. Give them some information and prepare them to behave a certain way and probably to listen the next time. So I think to really hit it off here and capturing the attention they don't Turner off. She's very approachable. She's not using condemning, you know, like vertical language or it's very, very disarming kinda brings you any almost like you just sit there like on the on the couch with her and she's she's doing this on I would excuse a genius. I mean, the results of the New Zealand, that the Kobe results in New Zealand speak for themselves. I mean, New Zealand's open for business. Well, there they're open to each other at business, but that close the culturally off, right? Because, because New Zealand Prime Minister generated the type of behavior that's needed and you can't discounter leadership style. So I want to close. I want to play devil's advocate wiki depth-first, second per style was very informal. Maybe some, some might feel I came across is less authoritative, right? It's a casual conversation. And so if we think about physician leaders, is it this in formality that's going to be effective isn't a more formal style where you think you, you come across as having the authority that comes with, with the knowledge that bit you have gained. When is it? And what kind of circumstances is the informality versus the formality that the authority versus the conversational aspect in which instances should our physician leaders be more cognizant of how their communication style works in situations like this. Great question IT, let me back up and say that the answer to this question starts with understanding the context, the cultural context of your audience. Now gets a little, a little, a general terms. What she's done is, or the cultural context she's captured. And in a non-threatening way. To me, that's the goal. And again, you want to reserve the sort of surprise approach. When you meet the folks that you're gonna lead. You want to save that for special situations. This is the global pandemic of the countries never faced, Right? So overall, She's capture their attention in a, in a non-threatening way. Now, New Zealand, for those who've been there. And I know both you and I haven't had the chance to travel there and I've actually done some academic work down there. You know, New Zealanders, the New Zealand and Australia culture much more egalitarian, right. And so, you know, that they're really anti ego, which were egalitarian. And so for New Zealanders, This is going to actually be more effective than for Americans in America or much more hierarchical, Little bit more self-driven. We expect our leaders to be a little bit more looking snazzy, or are carrying the weight of their power. So I'm not saying this wouldn't be effective the United States. But it's definitely even more effective for the cultural context of New Zealand. And pink, there isn't good method urinal he has to come from. You really have to mirror your communications with the cultural context in which you are. Not only the situation that you find yourself, the broader culture in which you're operating and, and linking, it really becomes very important to get your message across effectively. So I can, I can think of an example, united states after 91101 of the celebrated moments for George W Bush was when he was dressed in a button up shirt and he was at the 911 site. And he gave a speech to a bull horn, right? For the American cultural context of that moment that resonated with Americans. They don't expect the President to be speaking through a bull horn. Standing next to a guy with a helmet on a construction site may captured our attention in a non-threatening way that reassured us that the leader is there to take us to safety. Mosul pledged, telling us what adults want to achieve in the first iteration. And I think there's so many in our program and the physician MBA program that it's not just at their communication with their, with their patient, but it's also their communication with their teams. And they are the leader of those teams. And so to the point, it really has to fit, it has to fit that relationship that you have. Maybe we'll, we'll turn our attention to another very short clip, 50-second clip. But this time with New York governor Andrew Cuomo. And let's watch it and then I'll ask you a couple of questions afterwards. I had my daughter who was in isolation and I was very aware of what she was dealing with in what she was feeling. And I'll tell you the truth. I had some of the best conversations with her that I have ever had. She was alone for two weeks with her own thoughts, not talking to anyone else, no noise, no activity. And we talked about things in depth that we didn't have time to talk about in the past or we didn't have the courage or the strength to talk about in the past. Feelings that I had about mistakes that I had made along the way that I wanted to express my regret and talk through with her. So so what about this one? What do you have thoughts about how the Governor approaches sharing details? Pif relationship with his daughter in the sharing personal stories like this, help during the crisis or hurt during a crisis. You know, i, Governor Cuomo here is walking a fine line. I think he does a good job of it. They'll get the audience. Please note that what we're talking about folks across the political line, this isn't about whether they'll kind of republicans. And so, but, but you know, Governor Cuomo tip. A lot of accolades from across the political spectrum on his briefings. And now, what do I mean by walking a fine line, right? Go back into people's brains. Our brains are constantly evaluating leaders. So as a physician leader, everyone around you is constantly looking at you and evaluating your motives, right? And our brain naturally either embraces leadership friend, or pushes it back. And you're going to push it back if you don't think the leader has your interest at heart. And so the problem that the danger of what we Cuomo, anybody manages it well. But how does, how, how the approach that Governor Cuomo can backfire is he's talking about himself, right? In a crisis. When you're not feeling safe, when you're feeling threatened, and you're looking for hope. The last thing you want is for the leader to be at least focused on herself or himself. And this is why I always point to ego as one of the most toxic forces in business and in leadership, right? If your audience, if the people who have to leave thinking that your first, that you're sort of on some spectrum of narcissism. Their brains gonna shut off. However, Cuomo is able to set it up. So you can actually really maximize the value of this. And so in some ways, Cuomo had conducted his, his, his briefings, much like the New Zealand Prime Minister hat, right? You certainly have fireside chat that began. Not everybody liked it. And Cuomo certainly made some policy decisions that had been well criticised for good reason. But but even my wife would watch me work. We're here in Indiana, Chile. She would daily when we're at the height of the crisis in our April, she would watch Chrome OS briefings because it gave her the sense like New Zealand have sort of this. Okay, there's somebody out there cares about me. Now, once, once your audience is convinced that your have their best interests at heart, that, that it's not about ego. Than what Chrome is able to do is capture the ability to live in the moment of his folk, of his audience, of New Yorkers. By telling that story, he's able to demonstrate, you know, not only am I or leader, but I get it. I live in your moment. And he describes the experience in a way. A first-line describes experience. A lot of people are habit and a lot of people are feeling. So it has almost ubiquitous. Folks can relate to it. But then he, he's honest, he's authentic. It's Chinua, It's not rehearsed and sorted. It starts to strengthen the sense of bond that we're in this together. And when you get to that point, you're starting to get up in the higher point of Maslow's hierarchy of needs, of sort of a sense of community and self-actualization. So I think, I think what we see here, once you, you know, you have to the snippet you gotta understand the larger, the larger successive Governor Cuomo and his style. And the fact that my wife was watching him from Indiana and he's a big fan. Politically, tells you something. He's growing people and so position leaders. When your team is up against the wall. And there could list that you have their best interests at heart. Do what you can to live in that moment, to take a time, to take a few minutes and tell a story where they know wildest got this, this woman or this man gets it. Yeah, I think you're right. Stories, do you convey a lot of information and they really grabbed a listener and it allowed them to relate to you. It's interesting to me because chromo had a huge variety of styles that he demonstrated during his, During his interviews, during his press conferences. Sometimes say it, he would really stick to the facts. He would, he would roll off a number of facts. This is how many people are positivity rate this how many people are infected? Somebody people die. This is where treatments are, this is where the hospital capacities are. But there are other times when he demonstrated great empathy through stories, the story of his daughters one, there was another story that he had told about a man who sent in a mask and N95 mask when they were in short supply. And when he was trying to say is, you know, I mean, he ended by saying how beautiful is that? And I thought actually he was going to cry at that moment because he was so touched by the generosity of a fellow citizen. So I think you're right. Cuomo found this unique way of interlacing these stories that were compelling, that, that actually help people understand. He's a human being and he also is experiencing this without taking away from his authority, without taking away from the knowledge that he had. Shall we turn to another one or you want to comment about that? It's I think to your point, emphasize you don't start, you don't introduce somebody demanded crisis with a story about yourself, right? In some ways, this was a, this was a privileged for Cuomo because he had set the stage and his leader's, his followers were convinced that he was about the we and not the me. So positions in your in your in your work to improve yourself as a leader. Ask yourself the question on a daily basis to the folks that I'm trying to leave the folks I'm trying to influence and persuade. Do they think I'm on the side of me or they think I'm on the side of we. Obviously, if folks believe err on the side of we, emotional blame is telling them this is a friend, not a slow. So we're going to, we're going to turn the tables now and go to the opposite end with a military figure and, and correspond or communication from that individual. This next video is from general Gustaf Purina regarding operation warp speed and PCORnet is really trying to address I think some of the challenges, some of the issues. And let's watch this a little bit longer video and then get your feedback from that. Okay. Now this week, many of her concerns about allegations. A vaccine doses being cut. I want to assure everybody. And I want to take personal responsibility for the miscommunication. I know that's not done much these days, but I am responsible. And I take responsibility for the miscommunication because this is a Herculean effort and we are not perfect. The key is to be transparent and to openly communicate at all levels step by step. To that end, we are in constant dialogue with both industry partners to ensure doses are available. But here's the key. The doses must be releasable in accordance with the FDA. We have developed the cadence that we are brief into public health officials. We started last night. We're briefing that again today. And I will personally brief governors on Monday. I failed. I am adjusting, I am fixing and we will move forward from there. I can't say it any better than that. It was my fault. I gave guidance. I am the one that approved the forecast sheets. I am the one that approved the allocations. Right? There is no problem with the process. There is no problem with the Pfizer vaccine. There is no problem with the modern a vaccine, right? It was a planning error and I am responsible. So film, what do you think about this apology went? What works and what doesn't work? You know, Id. This one Sparks Hello thought for me because I think we all struggle with how do we come clean on making a mistake? We're all gonna make mistakes, right? And our ego tells us to hide it, right? Or you go says, you know what, minimize it. But, you know, let me start off. The question is how do you, how somebody would apologize? What's right? We'd come clean, especially the crisis. I mean, it's not like, you know, he fumbled on a, on a, on a, on a client account at a market, an advertising firm. This is, this is the, this is the lifesaving. This is what's gonna get the country back to normal and save lives because of his mistakes, people, statistically guy. So this is bold and brave by this general, especially in the context of being part of operation warp speed, which is part of an administration, had a different strategy on communication. Let's just put it that way. Now, let me go back to a point I made earlier. What the general does six, he's, he succeeds on some things. Any false short? Again, I'm going to plot it. Raven Bolt. He gets points for being honest. But that doesn't mean that just because you apologize. Just because you're honest doesn't mean you're a good leader. You have to do it the right way. And again, it's walking a fine line. General does, does achieve the same thing with New Zealand Prime Minister did. And that is, is that you don't expect he come within seconds of hearing where it comes out of his voice. You don't expect to get your attention, right? Like this. I'm not expecting that. Now sit at a podium, right? That the Prime Minister had the right tone. But she also had the visual, the culture attention. He's at a podium but within seconds apparently gone. Oh well, he catches the attention. He hit what I call the the the head tilt. Your cell and I always tell us if your cell unwell. Or this is if you're selling an idea or you sell a product and you have a conversation and you're trying to persuade somebody, you know, that the body language, you know, you've got some black end is the head tilt. Huh? So both the New Zealand Prime Minister and the general achieve that head tilt because they, they presented a way that the brain doesn't expect. So the brain does is shut off and call Noise. Now, let's talk about the apology. What I like about the General is he's he's claim I made a mistake. It was my fault. Here. It doesn't qualify it. He didn't say I'm sorry that you may feel that this was wrong. That's your brand that's tied up at this time. Apology. And so he's not here. There's an authenticity there. It's my fall. Alright. So this, this person is with the we instead of me. Again, our brain is always testing. Are they me or they, we so draws you in that way. Then your brain goes, alright. This leader, it has my best interest at heart. He's part of the Wii. But now it's a matter of can you get the job done? And I think that we start to explain why people don't want to hear that. They want R0's NIH does offer reassurance that there's no problem with the vaccine. This is how we're going to do. It's factual. When you start to explain, which is a natural way to go. At least I have found it doesn't get you anywhere. Because people don't care. They just wonder what's going to happen next, right? And we start to explain. You started to come back to the me while I made this mistake. Let me try to explain it to you to try to win, to win face. So my advice to the general was maybe ship, maybe cut how much explanation you gave on y down to what, one-quarter of what you said. And then, you know, a lot of us. One lesson I've learned personally is that defensiveness never wins. Defensiveness again goes back to the me and it shows you a weak leader. So now the generals not defensive, which is good, who would get would completely ruin opposite to sort of as an authentic apology. He did though. He did, I will say though, that I think he said, it's my fault. Too many times. This is not about getting a pat on the back that you said, that you are honest. It's about re-establishing confidence in your ability to get the job done moving forward. Because even though you signal that I'm with, I have your best interests at heart, not mine. You can sort of become a tragic hero in that they might like the fact you apologized. They lose complete it, complete confidence in your ability to get stuff done. And if that happens, if you've lost your leadership, that but yeah, I think you're right, he polygon, there's quite a bit in a very short period of time. And, and I also think you're right. People want to know will tell us what you're going to do, not, not what caused the problems, although to your point, we need reassurance that the manufacturers and the vaccine itself are safe. I, I'm curious, you know, at this point in time, he's got to build credibility to get people to trust him again. So what is the next step to building that credibility? Always just a term that's about Acheson outcomes. Words are cheap, right? So I think the weight in that situation to build credibility is to minimize what you say. I mean, or what you say is factual. Write, falling back on off or if somebody if you've got somebody listening to you, a safe harbor is to be factual and steady, right? And people want the information, they need to reset their expectations. And can do that with facts and the plant. And again, if you don't deliver it as I'm going to do it this way to make up for the mistake. I made note to say what you gotta do. Give a timeframe. Don't over-complicate it. Then what happens is, as people say, all right, this person is focused on what happens next. She or he is not wallowing in self-pity. Another sign of insecurity, another sign of weak leadership. People's brain turn off. If they think you're wallowing in self-pity or you're insecure, you deliver the facts and where you're gonna go. They go, okay, I'm gonna listen to this because this is about what's going to happen to me given the risks that face out there. And then by that reset their brain, the people's brains nationally set another milestone that they're going to judge you against that bad when you're communicating. And especially failure. And in you, you are apologizing for it. You're going to be judged by the actions that follow this and by the success of that. And, you know, people are, tend to be somewhat forgiving the first time around, but the second time, you're in trouble if you can't deliver the second time, if you end up having to stand up and apologize again. So I think you're right, though. The words are important the first time, the actions her important after that, it will what, what, what, what do I think about an ID? And maybe this is a practical takeaway for our physician leaders because the sticky note, there's mistakes are made all the time. The clinical environment, it's a complicated, it's just part of humans. Sometimes the best simple approaches to look somebody in the eye. You apologize. You acknowledge the impact you've had very sick terms. Then you sad or excuses. We're going to change the way we're headed. We're going ahead. And that keep it simple and succinct. I have witnessed is the most effective way to recover. Alright, I, I typed many cases in, in my course on crisis management. And it's the honesty that really gets a lot of praise. But he just said keeping it very simple and then focusing on how you're going to fix the issues, how you going to fix the problems and making that the bulk of the communication we What are the title back in Nebraska? Right. If the petals bang, I'm list listed. I went to, I wanted to show two more brief segments, very British segments, one from a politician and one from a doctor that, that public health that everybody will recognize. But let's go to the politicians very, very quickly, a quick minute here and then, and then your responses as Governor to whine of Ohio. Let's watch this. Governor who got 60% of your state under him, under amassed ordinance. Somebody drives along the Ohio Turnpike and you pull off, you may not know what county you're in and whether there's a county ordinance. And i and i ask it this way because Governor, would it be a lot simpler to have one standard for the state when it comes to masks. I understand having different standards on restaurants and businesses, but on the mask front, why have all of these sort of different mandates depending on the county you're driving it. Well, first of all, we will highlands who've done very well. We flatten occur very early Ohio and did what they needed to do. When we reopen we put in place, we run the first states to put in place very sophisticated policy about how you reopen. And that has included a mass requirement for every every employee as far as customers now coming in, as you've pointed out, we're 60%. Frankly, where we've seen that go up is our counties of turn red. We're going the wrong way. We're at a crucial time. And so this week you may see a lot more counties under under that mask require much, so we certainly would not rule out going going statewide. We're certainly looking looking at that. But there's, you know, there's a lot of things going on. And one thing that we've tried to do, we're running TV ads. We're going to start a new ad this coming week or preview it on Tuesday. Really in the message is that you were the mass for other people. You were the mass to do protect your grandma than you were the mass two. And so it's not just the orders, the orders are obviously important, but getting people to buy in and to understand. So fill out real quick response. What do you think about how governor Duyme handle this particular question about math? So I think ID videos or say this is one more subtle once sought. The takeaway here is verse, yet to suddenly see it because it's how you correspond to critique, criticism or pushed that question, right? The Republican governor of Ohio is actually a master here. And it gets very subtle because it's a typical kind of back and forth that you see from a, from a talking head on television. So basically, let's go into what we see here. We've got the journalists doing his job, the basic same Governor. Why? Why is that? Why don't you why does an Ohio does have a mask mandate for all the counties, right? And you know, government devised that what a lot of Midwestern states have done, it's at the county level now. And this is, this is a, this is a model of how to respond to criticism, how to respond to a pushback question. We're all going to face that we're, we're leading through. People are constantly going to be questioning our decisions, were paid to make the decisions. That's why we sit behind a big desk. That's why we sit down at the podium, right? So with that comes the ability to manage the criticism and to answer questions. What I like what Governor to wind does is he avoids what a lot of people do and after to get drawed and into the, to the, to the media point, right? What he does is he suddenly interest the question by lifting the, the, the, the narrative to focus on. Okay, this is what we're trying to achieve, right? And so he basically takes command. If you just answer the question directly in a defensive way, you've basically given command of the conversation and command of the narrative to the critic. As a leader, you constantly want to suddenly and in a non-threatening way, have command of the narrative. And the way that we do that is as we bring week still answer the question. But we don't do it in a blunt way. We bring it back to what we're trying to achieve. Why are we doing this right? The emotional part of our brain always responds to the y, right? In the what and the how lives and the lives. And in the cerebral cortex, what the governor suddenly doing is taking the conversation, it talking about the why, why are we doing all this gives us some explanations and explains in a simple way to deliver facts. And at no point is a defensive. And at no point almost welcomes the question. He reassures his audience and Eva reassures the questioner that question. Here's what we're trying to do. And it's sort of this. He's a rock solid, is going to get a kit, speak, a kiss enough. He's not defensive. Being defensive is the natural response. Or BY being pushing back yourself. That just basically tells your audience that you're with me instead of the way. Phil, oftentimes when I teach, I do crisis management communication exercises in the room and I, I frequently tell students, have your message that you want to deliver and delivered over and over again, almost doesn't matter what the question is, be steady, Have a message. You know, your three points and boom, you're emphasizing those over and over and over again because that's the sound bite. That's what people are going to remember and that's what people are going to act on. So if you're really trying to deliver something, you can tailor that to whatever the question is. You can even say, you know, that's a good question, we're doing this, but what I really think people are interested in is this. And then boom, your message comes out and it's called bridging and it's a really good technique for communicating. And I think you're implying that the governor to wine did a bit of that? Exactly. And I got to remember that a crisis. Well, you didn't close your audience. You know, you look in normal times where your audience is, relax, listen, right? But even when folks are panicked, frustrated, fearful, they have less cognitive capacity to absorb whatever. Even if you do check all the boxes and make them feel safe. So simple, simple, simple hand. And again, you know, and this goes true for is, this is kind of a bedrock communication. Takeaway. Close. Your play. Does People's Place over the ROI? You say people splay deliberately made the seal type call this always feel governor DWI is very reassuring to solve a Buckeye turing. Well, the last clip comes from Dr. Deborah Burks and this just happened this weekend. This was an interview she had this weekend. And I found the interview fascinating. I watched the whole thing. And I know we have a clip from this. I know many people are familiar with Dr. Burke's from the, the press conferences that were done at the White House. So let's take a look at this short clip. You know, people than wanted to define you buy the moment and I understand, I look, I understand how perceptions go. I understood that to go into the White House and try to support a comprehensive coronavirus response by utilizing the strength of the Federal Government would be a terminal event for my federal career, which is part of the reason why I didn't want to do terminal event, turf adult event. I know that I wouldn't be allowed to really continue successfully within the federal government. Can't go into something that's that polarized and not believe that you want to be tainted by that experience or how people interpret you in that experience. So I knew that part of it. I didn't want that to happen. And this will be the end of your federal career. Yeah. I will need to retire probably within the next four to six weeks from CDC. So Phil, I'm really struck by this. And then there was a lot in her interview that was eye opening, including the many threats that she and her family received. Does she work through this situation? What strikes me is, this is very, very similar to something I do teach in my crisis management class, which we go back to the Bhopal incident, the Dow Chemical incident where the CEO said I built, I spent my entire life building my career, you know, decades building my career. And it was over in a heartbeat because of the way I handled the crisis or my inability to handle the crisis and the crisis communication effectively. And it strikes me that that's what I was listening to in this case. I wonder if you could describe what you think of when you see Dr. Burke's in in this interview? Actually id if we just take particularly at face value. But I know there's a lot of controversy and an a role and then the environment was, she wasn't right? So there's a lot of different ways to, to look at this. And I'm not gonna minimize other critiques. But I have this. Let me start with sort of a theoretical thing. I'll work back into this. You know, again, it comes back to me versus we write, is the brain saying that your, your friend or foe and only talk about this, that they get back to ego, right? To meet egos, the most toxic issue. But what I think we had there were Dr. Burke's. The question I would ask is, as he perhaps gone too far in what I'm preaching, right? And if you were to distill down my message. There's ego, there's confidence, right? Eagles toxic. Ego with confidence is arrogance, right? Our brain responds to leader who's arrogant because arrogance means me first. You can have ego without confidence. That means you have an insecure leader. And an insecure leader is off, oftentimes obsessed with themselves. Oh, I can't do the twist. Women and pity or whatever. They're the ones given that over-explain themselves when a given topology. The place is confidence without ego. That's inspiration, right? Confidence means confidence signals. I'm there, I'm going to run, you know, as, as followers, we want our leaders to run toward the danger, not away, but egotistical or insecure leader is going to run away from the danger. So confidence means that they're going to run toward the danger and the running toward the danger, not of their own personal glory, but they're doing it for the value of the, of, of the collective, right? That's our brains respond positively to that. Now, can somebody go overboard with that? So on my desk in the Dean's Office, I have my, my for it when she went to Spain, I have a miniature of Don Quixote, right? And you know, I think that you can take that too far. And so my question is that Dr. Burke's take her sense of we too far. And if you take her at face value, she's basically walked into a shredding machine and she knew she was doing it. And at some point you could say, well, she's kind of a tragic hero. Fill is the ultimate celebration of weight. She fell a sword for the good of the, of the United States. Just like Don Quixote, right ductility would charge the windmills out of a sense of that he was saving the world. But is the real value in that. At the end of the day, are you just doing it because you have your own martyr complex? And you're really, although it looks like the ultimate way, you're simply obsessed by yourself. So I'll, I'm gonna do this and just die, die in sort of a figuratively sort of fade away. People celebrating my sort of lost caught personal loss cause. So again, I don't want a second guest, Dr. Burke's I'm sure she had the best of motivations. But when you look back at the outcomes and even the way she talks about it, was he perhaps going too far. And just because you celebrate the Wii, it just pressure competent, which you've obviously Wise, doesn't mean you're gonna get it. You're going to, you're going to deliver on the leadership challenge. So I'm maybe to follow up on this clip. And in the role. I think most people would argue that the way that the pandemic was handled, especially in the early days, really demonstrated a lot of dysfunctionality. So when you have a physician leader navigating in a dysfunctional organizational environment, what advice do you have for them? How do they, how do they grab hold and make a difference in an environment that appears to be operating dysfunctionally. That's Final question ID. So what I want to speak to our physicians on the web. Because this is, this is what, this is what our physicians face. This is what we talked about in our program, right? That our program attracts those physicians. Don't want to go out there and fix the system. And the system needs fixing. Oh my gosh. Right. And even in these conversations a program OCHA, have, I'll have a physician raise their hand and they feel there's no way we can fix the system. And then my my my my response is you can't afford to give up. And so it's, this is a question for anybody trying to fix the US, the US health care system. My response idea is that, okay, and as a leader, as a human, you have the ability to influence those around you. Whoever you work with. Even if you're surrounded by dysfunctionality everywhere in your hospital system. The, the clinical team that you're working with, you have the ability to lead those people. It might be to nurses and or a scheduling assistant, whatever. But as a physician, you have the ability to impact those around you in the way that you carry yourself, in the way that you communicate and the way that you frame the challenges in front of you. And so, start there. Start to analyze yourself. Start, start to ask yourself, how well am I inspiring those around me? And you know what? You know the answer to that question. And take baby steps to improve your performance on that. And what will happen is, is that you will create an island of functionality in a, in a sea of dysfunctionality. That what tends to happen as we see with graduates, that it's so rare to meet great physician leaders that people recognize them. And we've come up in the organization. And what your learning to do right now and just a small-scale, you'll quickly find yourself being in high demand to do it at a higher level. And it's just so simple leadership lessons and a high level of self-awareness. Critique of the traditional way that physicians lead that we're taught to medical school. And I think Susanna jumping back in here, I am fascinated by so many of these different examples and that comments from both of you both summary the great questions you've been asking idea. And in fact, I got a text message from, from one of the participants here. We communicate on all levels who was like, that's the $1 million question. Another comment from from a physician currently in the program. I'm Dr. Burke's and really the insights that you gave fill like very helpful for being able to get that perspective. People sort of, you know, having you as well. Higgs, you always get a little bothered like what's wrong with it. So, so great insight there. And I think we could pull a lot of examples. You know, there's, there's a situation that we've been talking a lot in the classroom about. There's a physician that was recently passed away here in Indiana of Covert, who's black female physician in our classroom has been talking about both the response and then also the leadership at IU Health of what their response was like. So I think that that could be part two of a webinar. Or you can jump on the discussion board and continue that conversation that we're having in our classrooms. But I want to be sensitive to our time. So in closing thoughts from either one of you as as we close out this afternoon? I I think it's so worthwhile watching with open eyes and tried to take lessons from the things that we see going on around us and asking ourselves do that appealed to me? Did I learn something from that? When I do that and same or when I do it differently. And so our classroom is what's going on around us and we can learn from all of those kinds of actions. So thank you, Susie. And I will just say that if your physician or the most, I would argue that one of the most important things you can do is spend a lot of time analyzing your presence and being realized that people are looking at you and responded to you. And time, you'll have much more power to influence outcomes than you think. And so existing in this type of self analysis might be the most important way that you can improve the environment for your patients substitutable. Yeah. That's my closing thoughts and I just want to tell you, you both are getting accolades from physicians who've had you in the classroom, who it's great to see and hear, who've really enjoyed your perspectives and your time. So I want to, I want to mirror that, repeat that. We really do appreciate the insights. And for those of you who are watching the recording of this, you've got follow-up questions. Do not hesitate to reach out email. I know filling IT would love to take any questions, so thank you both. Thank you for your time. Thank you to all of us for joining us today and giving us so generously of your time. We'll see you at our next webinar in our series, which will promote on our website here shortly. Thank you.

Improving Healthcare Operations through Design Thinking: Innovating in a Time of Crisis

Design Thinking is a creative, collaborative and human-centered approach to problem solving that priortizes understanding people. The COVID-19 pandemic required physician leaders to change processes and innovate regularly. Learn howhow physicians can apply this approach using an innovation mindset.

Using “Six Domains of Leadership” to Lead Through Challenging Times

Gain an understanding of the “Six Domains of Leadership” model, which focuses on six interrelated areas of action: personal, relational, contextual, inspirational, supportive and responsible leadership. Learn to analyze your ability to influence others using this comprehensive and dynamic model.

Leadership During Times of Crisis

What makes a crisis unique? And how should it be managed? Healthcare leadership expert Christopher Porter leads an in-depth discussion about crisis leadership with particular attention to the differences between managing and leading.

Description of the video:

All right. >> Well, welcome to our webinar on leadership during times of crises. >> My name is Crystal reporter. I have a number of roles here in the Kelley School of Business. The role that I am most proud of is my role as the chair of the business of medicine physician MBA program. >> And we had been really concerned about our physician MBAs. >> We've been concerned about the health care community more broadly. >> And we were looking for ways to stay connected with our students and to reach out and provide a way of saying sort of thank you for everything that you're doing, but also an opportunity for us to share some information with you that comes from the types of things that we study and do research on, the types of topics that we explore and the things that we teach in our classes. So this is yet another opportunity to sort of inject some business knowledge directly to physicians in a way that hopefully helps them during this ridiculously crazy time that we're in. >> So I worked with a colleague, Brittany amber, to develop a presentation specifically about crisis leadership. >> And that's a distinction that I'm going to make both now and later in the presentation and sort of distinguished leadership during crisis from crisis management, I actually think they are somewhat unique topics. And I, and certainly Kelley is a training ground for physicians that have become physician leaders. I want those of you who are part of our program, those of you who are thinking about our program to be thinking about leadership in addition to management. So the good place to start is just kind of talk about what a crisis looks like. >> It's sort of more broadly are generally. >> So a crisis essentially is, you know, what's the worst that could happen? And that's a question that I'm going to keep coming back to. And it's a question that I'm going to encourage all of you to think about constantly What's the worst that can happen, unless the worst that can happen. So when we think about what a crisis is, Merriam Webster defined it as a situation that's reached a critical phase. >> It's a pretty broad definition. >> I don't know how useful it is. >> So I'm going to sort of move us to another definition of a crisis. >> It's an event that can destroy, effect, or affect an entire organization. >> So keep in mind, from my perspective as an organizational scholar, the work that I do tends to look at how things impact organizations. And organizations are social entities at, at their core, their social entities comprised of employees. And those employees are oftentimes hierarchically structured. And the organization tends to be hierarchically structured. But as a leadership scholar and as an organizational leader, as a positional leader, one of the things that's always gotta be on your radar as your organization's performance. And so a crisis, by this definition, is any event that can effect or destroy it. Get off one more definition that I think is a useful one for thinking about the responsibilities that we have as leaders when we're dealing with crisis. And here, crisis is defined as the low probability, high impact event that threatens the viability of an organization is characterized by ambiguity of cause, effect, and means of resolution, as well as by a belief that decisions must be made swiftly. >> So that's a bit of a mouthful. >> But low probability events that have high impact that threaten organization, right? >> We tend to sometimes be unclear about what's the cause the impact is going to be, and how do we resolve it, right? >> But we find ourselves in a situation where decisions really have to be made quickly. So regardless of how you want to define a crisis, I think at the end of the day we know one. When we see one, we all know that what we're dealing with, with COBIT 19 is certainly a crisis and is from that lens, I would like for you to sort of think about what your organization's response has been, how you might change that response in the future and how your organization is going to forever change after this crisis has passed. So at its core, a crisis includes a couple of things here. >> They are unexpected and does not suggest that we can do some predictions that this is a completely unforeseen sort of event, but they tend to be unexpected. >> It's our job as organizational leaders to sit back and sort of examine the landscape of bigger out and ask that question, what's the worst that can happen? Because that's the only way that you can prepare for prices. >> They are non-routine. >> So any event that happens on a weekly, monthly, annual basis, that's probably not a crisis or is not a crisis that seriousness to serious enough to rise to sort of level that we would sort of think about it as a leader, as a, as a crisis event. These are non-routine things. They certainly produce some uncertainty. But I want you to keep in mind, and this is, I think what helps distinguish true leaders from others in organizations is that uncertainty is not just for the people who are sort of outside external stakeholders, whether your organization is also for the employees as well. >> And that's a theme that I'm going to come back to. >> Organizational leaders absolutely must have their, they must be dialed in on their pupil during a crisis event and they threaten a high priority goals. >> So by high priority goals, it could be everything from employee safety to saving lives, to efficiency, to profit making, profit maximization. >> Anytime an event like this threatens the very essence of what the organization is about, and then we're in a crisis situation. Now, a minute ago I talk specifically about the importance of decisions needing to be made quickly, and I want to revisit that for just a sec. There are a couple of non-decisions that I think are important for us to discuss, for us to talk about a little bit. >> Because I think we see some elements of each one of these currently and we see the effects. >> So let's talk first about the decision, not decisions not taken. This is essentially when an organizational leader, organizational leaders decided essentially to do nothing. >> They don't do anything. >> They don't put together a team to look at who's, you know, let the response ought to be o, start coordinating other people's efforts. Essentially, it's sort of a, the show must go on or business as usual, sort of attitude and perspective. This is almost, I can't think of really any situations where this is good for a forgotten for leaders to not act. Crisis situation demands some action in some way. >> Now I want to distinguish that from decisions not to make. >> Alright? >> So this is when a leader, organizational leaders past the decision-making off to other people, right? >> They don't step in and they don't make any changes. >> They don't address the crisis themselves. They essentially outsource the crisis management. They outsource the decision-making. And I cannot think of a clearer, simpler example of a outside of what we saw at the federal level around this particular crisis, where there were a lot of decisions that weren't being made at the federal level because those decisions were being pushed down to the state puppets. And it was, and it was and continues to be justified, is the right response to this situation. As you can all see, I suspect when you push decisions down the leader, when leaders don't make decisions and rather push them down to other folks and policymaking down to other folks. >> It's sometimes looks like chaos, right? >> There's time and place for that strategy. >> But in response to a crisis like the one that we're currently going through, where it has to be coordinated efforts. >> The decision not to make approach tends to just simply lead to chaos, right? >> And, and I think that I would predict that it's going to exacerbate the extent of the crisis because people are not moving in lockstep with one another or states are not working in lock step with one another. >> And in fact, we even see that, we see the effect that it's having on the supply chain, even in terms of states competing with one another. >> Then there's finally the decision not to act on. >> And this is when leaders actually make a calculated choice to not interfere, to not make decisions. >> So you've, you're choosing in action over a specific action. >> Again, this can look a lot like you're not making a decision, and that's one of the problems here. >> But it could be that you have a different sense of, that's my pressure. >> You have a different sense of the perceptions of threat. And so we can certainly find ourselves in situations where leaders might intentionally decided they don't want to act. I think part of the challenge here is that from an outsider's perspective, and I'm going to talk about stakeholders in a minute. >> But from an outsider's perspective, it might look like empathy. >> So when we think about crisis, we also, we generally think about crisis management. >> We like to sort of identify it and we call these different topologies. >> So I'm going to share one or two with u. >> So this one, what happens in this particular typology is you're classifying crisis events based on what originates the crisis. >> And as we see on the vertical axis. So sometimes a crisis can be the result, but sort of technical or economic failure of some sort. >> But sometimes they can be the result of humans are social behavior. >> On the vertical axis, what you see is sort of how it's initial rooted is it's sort of a normal, is it something that happens as part of a normal, non-routine everyday event, which again, I would I would say that, you know, based on some earlier definitions this year, this might not necessarily fall into the crisis category, but this isn't typology to events that are true aberrations, things that don't happen. >> So, you know, I'll give you some examples here. So the mega damage might be something like an environmental disaster. >> When we think about things on that sort of bottom left quadrant, the things under the psycho, this could be things like terrorism, it could be things like sexual harassment complaint and an organization, right? In terms of like an occupational health disaster that's sort of at the intersection of all these things. >> Here we'd got like as an example, like a hepatitis outbreak because at a restaurant, right? >> So the reason why I share this, this taxonomy with you is because as an organizational leader and as a physician leader, it's your job to take time regularly to evaluate the various types of crises that can occur and that can affect your organization beauty. >> I think that what we're going to find is that there were folks asleep at the wheel as it relates to this particular pandemic. >> And that there were opportunities for us to see what was coming ahead. And people weren't necessarily perceiving the threat and didn't think were used, utilizing what I would call a faulty thinking. And I'm going to talk about some of those different types of faulty thinking shortly. >> So let me show you another way of sort of thinking about crisis. >> Crises. >> This is another taxonomy. This one essentially looks at the speed in which the crisis develops. >> So it could be sort of fast or it can be slow and then house quickly, it resolves. >> Is it does it resolved or determinate fairly quickly, or does it take a while for it to, to terminate? And so we might think of things from a slow, fast borrowed in crisis situations. And we see organizations deal with them long time back. >> If you, if you're, you know, many of our students, for example, had, have moved into administrative positions or they came back to the program. >> They came to the program because they Or saw a change and a move to administration. And they were maybe spending less time doing their clinical work or saw that there was a need for them to spend less time doing some of their political work. And so you've seen different crises sort of unfold within your organization. >> Some do map and pretty quickly, they come about quickly and quickly, but they can have profound effects on the organization. >> Somethings are these sort of slow burners sort of build up, build up, build up. I think history will, time will tell to what extent could 19 was a crisis that was sort of where it fits in terms of this type biology. But I think it's pretty clear there were signs that were available that simply weren't weren't considered, weren't given serious consideration. But we'll get a chance to look back on that now, analyze that at some point it's going to make we're an excellent, very several excellent business cases, I'm sure. Here's another way of sort of thinking about crisis events. This is a taxonomy that's what we looks at the different phases of a crisis lifecycle, everything from what warnings were there some assessment of risks that need to be made? How we will respond with a response to the crisis. There's the management of the crisis, it resolves, and then there's some recovery. >> So this is one way to sort of think about all the various things that you can anticipate. >> And I think what's, what's, what's coming? >> Now I do want to make a comment about this model because this model was very linear. >> We go every row from warning through to recovery. >> And I don't think that this crisis is going to be battling. I think this crisis is going to be very different. >> And in fact, I actually wouldn't anticipate, and I would love to be wrong, that there will be management and resolution. >> But if the management of this crisis is not coordinated from the top, then I think we're going to find ourselves back in another situation we're going to have to respond on again. And I think we see that, we see examples of that right now. >> So if you all are probably well aware will on open back up yesterday, but they're doing it very tentatively there. And we're going to start to see more places come back online. >> There's gotta be a, there's going to be multiple responses and multiple attempts, I think, to manage this before we get to meet a recovery state. >> Here's another one with you in terms of the management of this crisis. And this is a five phases model where essentially you start off, and this is what you would think about from an organizational perspective. >> All of you physicians out there who are leading and plan OLED. >> You need to be thinking about what signal should we be attuned to? >> What should we be paying attention to the environment? >> What are we going to do to prepare? And to what extent are we practicing our preparation? And one of the things that a lot of organizations are going to have to ask themselves is, what things we do previously that undermined our ability to manage this crisis. >> So for example, in our efforts to get so mean, did we eliminate the possibility of having stockpiles or extra inventory in the event of a disaster, right? There's gotta be some containment. >> Okay? >> Then you see that recovery again. >> And what I love about this model is that learning is a part of this process. >> And I think that that is one of the things that leaders ought to be focused on and ought to be emphasizing every day during this crisis, you should be focused on the learning piece. >> And in fact, if I was going to, if I was going to tweak this models, I did reading, I've been talking about this and thinking about it. >> This is not our model. >> But if we were going to critique this model or add something to that, I would insert learning when all those little pants, because I think that the learning can cap it immediately. >> And I think it's a mistake to think. And it's a mistake for your organizations that think that once we get through this, then we'll start learning. >> Well, then we'll then we'll do our our after-action reviews and then we'll do we'll wait until that late date. >> They're going to be things, lessons that will be loss. >> There will be information, it won't be captured that would be relevant in the event that this circle cycle starts all over again if you don't engage in the learning process immediately. >> So it's something I would like for you to keep in mind. >> It's a perspective that I'm hoping that all of our Kelley physician MBAs are taken back to their organizations to make changes immediately. So I'll share with you a couple of quotes from folks who I think I thought about crisis management, or we're in the midst of the crisis management. Heb got very interesting right up in Texas Monthly because of their ability to manage the crisis and make sure that food continues to be on the show and at the supply chain is not disrupted. But it's because they had been practicing all along. They go through lots of efforts year-round to make sure that they're ready when a crisis occurs. So for them it's not if it's way in a very interesting perspective, another perspective, and I just want again to highlight something that I think is really important. >> Andrew Cuomo said about a week ago, you don't fight the last battle. >> So what does he mean by you don't fight the last battle? What he's talking about is looking forward. >> So he's not concerned about what happened last week. >> He's trying to plan for and anticipate what's going to happen the next week and the week after that, as opposed to spending too much time focusing on the paths. >> And I think it's a very delicate balance. >> And I think that's what leaders have to have to do. >> They have to find a way to focus on the past just enough to make sure that they're learning. But in a soap, but they're not preoccupied with it and it's a hindering their ability to move forward. >> So with that, I'd like to move to crisis communication because this is sort of the basics about dealing with the crisis. >> And it's incredible how many organizations are not getting this right, even as we speak. >> So part of what we try to do when we manage a crisis is communicate effectively, communicate to the right folks. So who are those right folks? Well, this slide is my effort to try to help you understand all the people who are affected by how your organization is dealing with the crisis. >> And you can't leave any of these people out. >> So let's collectively call them stakeholders. >> You've gotta be attending to all of these stakeholders and you've gotta craft messages sometimes for each one of these stakeholders, right? >> So we would talk and suppliers, competitors, our employees, our stockholders. >> If we've got stockholders, we gotta be prepared to talk to the media, right? >> And as a physician leader, don't ever think that you should not be prepared to interact with the media or does provide a message about how your organization is dealing with crisis. >> I woke up the other day. >> I saw an Eskenazi dot on one of the national news channels, so it could be new. >> And as it relates to that couple of things that you ought to know as it relates to crisis communication. The first 24 hours of a crisis is the most critical for you to be communicating a message. And I'll talk a little bit about how to communicate that effectively later, but set that understand. >> Time is of essence, right? If, if, if anything, you've taken away, one of the first English they're taken away was the importance of time urgency. >> Here I want you to keep in mind that you, if you don't provide information, others will fill in the information for you. >> So people don't do well with information gaps and they're looking for them to be felt. >> And I think as a physician leader, it's your responsibility to jump in and try to fill in those gaps when you have good information to provide. But you cannot have these long periods of silence where people aren't hearing from your stakeholders are not hearing. It's important to make sure that you're telling the truth up front and width. That you need to make sure you're providing honest, accurate answers. So I am saying I am opening the door for you to provide a non answer if that's what it takes for you to make sure that you're being accurate. I would much rather, and people will have much more confidence in a leader who was willing to say, you know, I don't know the answer to that question in either handed off to someone who can answer that question or you assure that the person who's asking that question, but who would who you're communicating with that you will provide some follow-up at a later date. >> Even better, if you can let them know when you're going to be providing that follow-up. >> But it's just important to make sure that you're being truthful and you're telling people exactly how it is right up front. >> Couple other keys to communicating effectively when everything's going crazy BY president and time. >> And yes, I said it again, time, time, time, time is so important in crisis management. I just can't overstate it. So you have to be present in it. >> It has to be timely. >> You simply cannot show up. Just is not an option. I say that you should also, I would say that you also need to use multiple media types of media and communication and methods. And this is important to understand because some messages get out to some people in certain ways and they don't necessarily translate to messages that other people may understand. So in a situation like this, ball calls might be appropriate. >> Email might be appropriate. Putting something on a website might be appropriate. >> Don't simply use one path to communicate and cut off the opportunities to communicate through other ways. >> People want to see their leaders at a time like this, we're looking for our leaders for some certainty and some assurance that so you just want to make sure that you're there for them as many ways as you can. >> Again, be honest, don't spin, right? >> Most people are savvy enough, smart enough to realize when they're not being people aren't being truthful with them. >> And even if they're not, they will realize it later. >> So it's important, I think, to just be up front. >> I think that leaders ought to be able to communicate the plan of action. >> And if there's a plan that's being developed, they should communicate that they are continuing to work on the play or the plan might change. But you might let folks know that you have one. I think you need to be sensitive with the people who were affected sometimes. >> And it's interesting to me that we have all this research that talks about the types of people who move into leadership positions. >> Sometimes they're not the most sensitive folks. >> But this is a time where you really need to show us some ability to feel what other people feel and to help them through it, avoid conflicting messages in this information. >> And this is part of the reason why a lot of times all these certain people will be, that should achieve communicators in crisis situations. But if you choose that perspective and choose that plan, you need to make sure that you've got a backup per person who was just as informed as you who can jump in when the time comes or if it's a pro, this is one that people don't necessarily pay a lot of attention to think about. But it's important to deliver information in bite-sized chunks, smaller chunks. >> And the reason why I say that is because our cognitive capacity is everyone's cognitive capacity is limited. >> Some is more limited than others. >> And a crisis situation with stress and uncertainty, people's cognitive capacity oftentimes will just decrease. >> So my point is there's not so much that people can take in at any given time. >> So you can make shorter messages. >> More cuts limit the amount of content. >> The understanding that people can't consume so much at IIT that sort of break it down into smaller pieces, that would be a much better way of communicating effectively. You need to show that, and I think this has to start immediately starts showing that you've got a plan that try to avoid a repeat of that crisis, even when that crisis is not your fault, right? So if I'm an administrator in a hospital right now, I might be having conversations about how we're going to be prepared for that. How are we going to start to incorporate stop pumps, right? Or how we're going to start making sure that equipment that we're using is not outdated and all these other sort of things that we do for Disaster Management. >> I'm going to start talking about the things that if I hadn't been doing it, what I'm gonna do golf on. >> Don't make excuses for the, for the leaders in the organization. Don't make excuses for the organization. Be straight up with books. It's an important time to make sure that you are being focused on the people who are affected, not so much to yourself. And I know that's tough, especially when a situation where healthcare workers who are our heroes. >> By the way, >> But why healthcare workers are also being affected just like the general population. >> So I'm not suggesting that you don't focus on yourselves, but what I'm suggesting here is that people need to see empathy, right? And there are lots of crisis situations where you might not necessarily be affected like you are now. >> And those are situations in which you really do need to show people that you care about them. And as you're thinking about them and you're in this with them, you don't want to make sure that people never feel like they're alone, go the extra mile. >> And then the last thing I would say is make sure that you understand that the media is linked to public. In a crisis situation is not a time where you want to have a war with the public because they can be used to your advantage, helping to get your message out. Now having said that, I want to talk about some of the things that typically undermine our ability to manage the crisis. And this is in fact part of where I think we start to differentiate good business from bad business and good good management. Good leader share from sort of this with typical leadership that we might see your management, we might see a lot of organizations don't ever let any of these things affect you, your thinking, or your approach to crisis management. Some organizations take the prospective basis or every crisis is so unique, so different that we can't possibly prepare for them. >> Again, that's unacceptable, right? >> I talk a lot of times with students about carving out time to do better stuff, right? >> And it sounds kinda crazy, but yet you really do have to carve out time to do liter, stop it. So what do I mean by leader stuff? >> Leaders have to put time in their schedule so they can sit back and think about the organization at a strategic level. >> Strategic thinking, right? >> What's your landscape look like? >> What's the environment look like? >> What are the threats that we're facing? This situation ever in has highlighted the importance of making sure that as you take that time to do that liter stuff, part of it is thinking about the various types of crises that might affect your organization. So you might go back to those typologies I provided and you say, what, what's the worst that can happen? What's the worst thing that could happen immediately and have an effect on our ability to take care of our patients. >> Well, what's the, that could happen from a technological perspective? >> That could, could, could damage our reputation, right? >> Or put our, our physicians and our staff risk. >> Those are the kinds of things that, that leaders have to do. >> And so I'm simply giving you the playbook to use to start doing those things. And I'm also telling you the sorts of excuses that you can not use to, to not to jump to that. By not engaging in that process, you cannot buffer yourself from your environment, right? You can not be the type of organization at punishes employees for speaking up right? >> Where people won't identify things that they can see coming on the horizon because out of fear, hey, don't assume that when a crisis happens or crisis occurs, that you've gotta be able to be objective and rational, right? >> And that's it. >> All the decisions that you make because we know that people are people, right? And so there's a certain amount of irrationality that we can all expect to deal with, especially in a situation where there's a crisis. >> Don't assume that crisis and remote thought resolved themselves, or they're throwing enough money at a problem has gotten effects that these are just some of the things that death does have to keep in mind. >> And then finally, I want to talk a little bit about, well, you know, I don't want to skip this one. >> Reputation is important, but it's certainly not the most important thing. You should, your efforts should not, in a crisis be focused on making sure that your reputation stays intact, especially if the crisis is somehow another your fault. You've gotta take responsibility and you gotta understand that are more important things than just an organisation's reputation. But I do believe it's important to think about ways that you can improve your reputation because of the way you handle that crisis situation. >> And then finally, this idea that crises are only negative. >> I certainly don't want anyone to take that away from anything that I said. >> In fact, they'd be inconsistent with the model I showed you that showed learning as a part of that loop. >> These are there opportunities here, and I'm going to come back to that in a minute. >> So let's talk a little bit about the things that I think make Kelly students well suited to lead and a moment of crisis. >> As Kelly student, you haven't had any yet. >> You will root spinner. We're going to spend a quarter talking about all things leadership subtopic I love. >> And it's a topic that I think is practically important and valuable. >> I want to address some of the things that you've heard me say in class. I'm in this next section about leadership specific to crisis. >> I mean, if you're a student who had, not had me yet, you get this is what you can look forward to when we see each other soon. >> So if you're a prospective student, this is what we're about at Kelly, Dealing with hard stuff. So couple of things that leaders ought to do that I think real leaders do S6 things that real leaders do. Vision, mission values, those are the things that ought to drive your response to any crisis. You can never loose, loose sight of those very important things. And they should factor into the types of decisions that you make in response to the crisis. >> Number two, team efforts is not a leader's job to handle a crisis in isolation and handle a crisis all by themselves. So the best decisions we make are when they are driven by other people's or driven in part by other people's input. >> So you never want to forget that. >> But I would also suggest that you ensure that there is a diversity of perspectives about the decision and about which you're facing as opposed to a single singular sort of perspectives. As I've noted already, it's important to learn, but you don't have to wait until this is the crisis ends for you to start learning. You don't have to wait until recovery for you to start. Learning. Should be learning every step of the way. >> It's incredibly important that you project confidence. >> You gotta understand again, people are dealing with uncertainty. >> If beer there, folks are afraid of all sorts of things. We're in the midst of the Big Bang, the beginning of a recession. >> And even though I've certainly I've got colleagues who were predicting this recession won't be a long one. >> Who knows? So there's all types of uncertainty there. We looked our leaders to assure us that things are going to be OK. And you do that by projecting confidence. >> Now I don't want to conflate or you to conflate confidence with knowing everything. Because again, I would much rather have a leader who's willing to admit what they don't know. >> Because that way I'm confident that that person who go and secure the information they need from people who do, who do actually know. >> So don't, don't confuse confidence with arrogance or hubris. >> I think that good leaders use, take, use of symbolic gestures. >> I've always said that I said that I would, I would advocate the use of symbolic gestures even when times are good. >> So when times are bad, people really are looking at their leaders to show their willingness to perhaps make a sacrifice for them. >> To make sure that for people who want to see that their leaders are asking them to do things that they're not willing to do. And I will echo what my colleague being Powell, said about a week ago. I do believe you will see the rise of physician leaders as a result of this event. >> I think people are going to want to see physicians in charge. >> I've been actually telling everyone that I talk to you, that this is the year of this scientists. >> This is that right? >> Yeah. >> And I think that those who are studying, who had made a career out of studying and learning and putting those sorts of talents to use right now are going to come out. >> What they do now, what you all do now. >> And I would include you in that, that scientists, sort of practitioner bucket of folks, I think it's all going to pay dividends later. And I do think that it's important to talk about the future. >> And this is another way to help people feel better, to remind them that there's a future to look forward to. >> Again, I'll go back to Andrew Cuomo, who said last week that this is a, if I remember correctly, I think what he said is this is it is going to be a tremendous opportunity, that this presents tremendous opportunities for us. And what he was talking about is entrepreneurial spirit, talking about some of the changes that, the way that we're living right now and the way that you're practicing medicine right now are going to solidify. It's part of the conversations that we're having even in class right now about the sorts of eye opening, sort of things that we're seeing. >> What potential is there. >> And I don't think, and I think talking about those things give people confidence there's going to be another side of this. When it's all said and done. >> Okay. >> The last thing I'll share with you is that I'm going to go a little further in terms of things that real leaders do. >> But these are things that are real leaders do for others. >> And this is where I think you really see a difference between physician leaders and managers. >> You have to recognize and validate the feelings of other people. >> Certainly, Raul focused on the task at hand. I know you all go to work every day, focus on the task, but you have to be sensitive enough to wet your employees are feeling and their fears and their concerns and their uncertainty. >> And I think it's important to not only recognize them, but be willing to be in that space with them and talk with them as well. >> You've gotta understand also that you gotta facilitate people's sense-making. And by sense-making here, it's what it sounds like. It's, you know, we're all looking around trying to make sense out of what's going on. As a leader, you can help people with that process. >> You can talk about your concerns and, and you can talk about what you anticipate seeing down the road. >> And you can help them understand why you're doing the things that you're doing, and why they need to do the things that they're doing. >> All that counts as sense-making. You've gotta work really hard to try to reduce people's fear and uncertainty. And again, I think if you're trying to be present, if you're trying to be consistent, if you're trying to be fact base, that you will do those things. You gotta make a special effort to help employees cope. And by the way, all of this is sort of tied to this idea and try and emphasize the importance of emotions at work. >> We cannot ignore how contagious emotions are where people come in, you come in and people see you rattled. >> As a leader, you're rattling them. >> And that's gonna, this is contagious, right? Emotional Contagion, right? We see that happen all the time and organizations, even during normal times. >> So that spirit that you bring to work, that tenacity that you bring to the work that you know, those are the things you have to do, that confidence to bring. >> Those are the things you have to maintain in the interests of others. >> You absolutely have to set the example again, you would not want to be led by somebody and I asked you to do things that you wouldn't do, actually do things like that, that day themselves would not do. >> So you certainly want to set an example, which also have to set an example for how to deal with the tough times. And finally, you also make sure that you're providing resources for people's wellness and for their coping. One of these things that we understand is that emotional exhaustion as dynamically tied to physical exhaustion. >> And you can't work 24 hours straight, right? >> And then not think that it's going to have to take an emotional toll. And I was disappointed to see how slowly some organizations, we're recognizing the drain emotionally and physically that some of this was putting on their employees. >> Got to be an advocate, an advocate for them. >> But you also have to understand that relationship is dynamic, right? And so I did, I restarted see organizations come up with systems to make sure that people are getting a chance to recharge and get well so they can come back to work. So as a leader, are those are, those are certainly some priorities that he did not realize. >> We're all on your plate. >> They absolutely should know your plate. >> So with that, again, I could not be proud to be affiliated with Kelly, Right? >> No. >> And to have connections to all of you who are doing this very, very important work. >> I'm Suzanne and I helped me to field some questions from you that might have come up as I was talking. >> And certainly for those of you who are not as closely connected to the program, we certainly would love to hear you talk about some possibilities. >> Board engagement, excellent, amazing insights. And it's interesting to see so much in the query here. And I think that's in the interest-bearing participants, a couple in nodes. At the very end, you see a box that says Q and a. So if you click on that type of question for Christopher at this point and I will moderate them, but noting some of the theory trace here, who's a graduate of our yeah, revamping though I'm Welsh, he's made some observations about sort of how this crisis was handled and how it may or may not align with that theory. Do you have any comments on that? And he's talking about sort of the incident command at multiple levels, local, city stay, regional, Federal, et cetera. And the preparation aspect that you are talking about. Any thoughts you want to share on a theory behind that? >> Well, theory is just theory, right? So I'll start, I'll start with that. Oftentimes we try to talk about, and in these cases, these models try to articulate what are the best case, best-case scenario, how the eye with the ideal response would look like. >> And I know, you know, as I said, things don't always look that way. >> And this certainly as it unfolded that way, I think that is that as a leader in an organization, that's the, these are the, these are the life cycles that you should anticipate. These are the responses that you should be planning for. >> You'll be better at the end of the day dealing with the crisis if you've taken those models into consideration. >> But absolutely, tray, you're right. >> Things Walton won't necessarily happen or unfold the way that we'd like them to. >> But I think the best organizations are prepared with those models in my brain. >> If we're sorted further alone and we didn't have the minerals in marine and we're in sort of a reaction. And this gives it a couple of questions. People are asking, meaning from this effort and how do you interact with neither explain what's right to disagree with the approach they've taken. How do you start changing that course? >> Yeah, so all of, all of the students who have me know that I'm a big advocate for not waiting around for someone to allow you to lead and jump in and you start leading right away. Right. >> So i >> This is no different of the situation. >> Now, I do think if you've got the ability to be in the year of leader and leadership team or the management team. >> Or if you're already in a position where you can do this, I think you can start putting together tombs like today to take on certain aspects of the, of this tags. >> So you can have a team that's focused on gathering and sites you could find ways to debrief people, whether it's after a chef Bill or after a few chefs, or maybe it's weakly to find out what's working and what's not working. >> Because if we see this, as many anticipate this, you know, potentially another flare up. And we've gotta be able to respond better than we did the first time. >> And that's, and that's sort of the key. So good. I put together a team that's going to work specifically on learning? Could I put together a team that's gonna get us ready in terms of our stockpiles, in our ability to to do inventorying, even right now? Absolutely. >> Could I be reaching out to other organizations rather than, for example, I'm working at this problem as if I'm the only hospital and how can I be reaching out to other hospitals to find out what they're doing that's working well, right? >> And that's, you know, there are other, there are external, but they're certainly part of the, part of the process, right? >> So you might find out that they've put a new process in place that's helping them to manage patients better or helping them to reduce infection rates and their staff that are. So this is a time to be collaborating all over the place. >> That brings up a question from Dr. Linda. Linda and another array he talks, he's bringing up the question, this sort of aspect of change management and the change agents that you can be in a time of crisis. And do you have any thoughts or strategy you would recommend to make sure a return to usual, not the shapers of healthcare moving forward, that we see. Some of that change aspect that we really do need to see so that we're more prepared as a health care system. >> Yeah, I absolutely would agree with the idea that we will not return to normal. >> I think there's, I think there will be some things that will return. I think there will be lots of changes and I think that changes happen. >> So folks who've had me Orlando has knows that I that I believe that oftentimes there has to be the bits that initiate change. >> This is a huge event. >> The opportunities there, I can't imagine. >> And I know all the all the barriers to change that we typically see and typically deal with. I know they're there, but I can't imagine being the healthcare organization that is going to want to return back to the status quo at when this is over. So I mean, part of the urgency, I guess around making the changes, not to be the organization that's left behind. And you have to also understand that the general public is going to look at healthcare organizations very differently as well, right? And so they're going to your, that the people who you serve and take care of are going to have expectations. >> About changes and, you know, they're going to be folks out here. So, you know, if I could have gotten disappointment done via telemedicine, Why am I why am I in a doctor's office? >> Or if there's a being in the doctor's office is going to increase the likelihood that I'm going to get sick or my family member, Buddhists say, what sort of things can I not necessarily see or go to a big hospital for if I'm more likely to get sick and, and bigger hospital. >> So I think the train has already left and an organizations just have to get on. >> But now would be a great time to brush up on your skills about to most effectively manage change and how to identify the people who can help you do that. >> And so the things that we talked about, the change management class and the leadership thinks. And I think this is num only rate for physician leadership. So I'm excited about the potential that will recur to go a few things more from that crisis management piece you mentioned sort of the piece of sometimes information needs to be limited just to prevent ASP piece. >> Can you comment a little bit? >> How does that argument Wow, yeah, so I can hear all of what he said, but I think that you might have been asking about this, trying to find this balance between giving people all the information, but also giving them the information in smaller chunks and, you know, being honest and being incredible. >> So at the end of the day, you cannot let your credibility suffer during a crisis. >> And that's why I kept talking about being timely and being present and being accurate. >> There will be information that you're privy to. >> There will be things that, you know hopefully, and I think it's your responsibility to share them, but you share them in a way that doesn't scare everyone. >> Adapt now, and I guess part of the challenge is that a situation like this, the reality is scary, right? >> So saying we could see a 100 thousand deaths in the United States is a scary thing. You, it's inevitable that people will be scared with that information, but that's still a better approach than burying that information some way or are being deceptive about what that number is. >> And in fact, I think that we will look back on this and say not having those types of numbers, are being upfront about those numbers. >> And that potential early on is what I'll prolonged us getting to a point where we can start to fight back against, against this. >> So whatever information you get, we get people to true, I think people can in fact, hailed literature, but you can still break that information up. >> And there's sharks that will allow people to, and you can turn away and allow people to absorb the information that they can absorb when they can absorb it. >> So >> As a as a clear case in point, I would not want to have a four hour meeting with my team in the midst of this crisis, right? >> Could we do a 30 minute meeting and then revisit it in and see each other again the next day and do another 30 minutes. >> This is just people are overwhelmed. And so I think it's a delicate balance. >> I, I would, as a leader, I would love to have a, a follower who I have a good relationship in that team, who can give me some social cues and maybe sort of tapped me and say, you probably reached that point where people are getting it anymore or people are consuming the information, it'd be nice to have someone imbedded in the team who can help you make those decisions. >> If you're not necessarily all that sensitive to those cues or your understanding of the situation is so different from other people that you can handle that information in ways that most of your followers might not be able to. >> You're getting quite a few questions around the UPA asserting the areas people scream to me through the braces and also trained to lead towards the evolution, a change. Maybe it's just maintaining. Let us say that last part one more time. You might kind of went, sorry, trying to manage towards profitability or I've ability, but also that larger goal dancing system. Looking at all the different levels of care. A lot of people are asking about what's the solution? What's the approach? How should people at this point we with that larger objective? >> Well, I think that, you know, that I think the reality is that before this crisis, performance was multi-dimensional. >> After this crisis, mole performance will be multidimensional. And certainly I think that students are asking about what folks were asked about is in the midst of this crisis, performance is still multi dimensional. >> And so your eyes as a leader have to be on multiple targets, right? So before I talked about, you know, organizations by ability being threatened. >> If you and I, and I know I have a colleague who does a great job of talking about the myth of the non-profit, or it is to all of you are in an organization or you're trying to maximize profits, certainly, you know, helping people understand that that's still part of the goal. You're viability, your ability to sort of survive as an organization is still a priori what your priorities can share from time to time. >> And so it takes, I mean, leaders have to be able to talk about the big picture, right? >> And so while you might not be doing things that aren't profitable right now, while you might be using procedures, not procedure, but you might have processes in place or you might have processes in place that weren't the safest form of employees. >> Maybe edition, right. >> To talk about where you want to ultimately get back to is exactly what leaders ought to be doing. >> This is part of being future-oriented. >> They, I'm talking about what that future looks like. >> And it might include being back to profits and being back to seeing X amount of patients. So whatever criteria you use, but leaders also have to be sensitive enough to, to help folks understand was so certain goals are going to be put on the back burner for the time being to get through the crisis is still part of the survival of the organization. >> Interestingly, you want to hear when they move, right, in saying that people are living with this right now, he doesn't actually have much just flow as nice. >> Thank you. >> Yeah. >> So if you had to capture a leader right now, that you would say is an example of the theory you're talking about. >> Anybody would mean absolutely brilliant I or wherever this conversation as we were putting this together for you all, I watch him every day. >> In fact, I think a good chunk of people are watching him everyday. Andrew Cuomo is doing. >> If it's uncanny how, how his ability to do the things that we've been talking about it so much so that I actually had made the comment and to Brittany that it seemed as if he was working with some crisis, like a leadership scholar or crisis management scholar. Also just to sort of refine what he was doing on a day-to-day basis. He's he's being fact base, he's being forward-looking. >> He's empathizing with folks. >> He's showing that this is touching him to, you know, he made a point to talk about his, his own fears so people can, so you can show people that he can relate to them. >> He's given people an opportunity to control their destiny to some extent. >> But then he's also been firm when he couldn't do it anymore because people were making bad choices. If you want a lesson in leadership, I would say watch him every day for his hour, 45 minutes or so, press conference where he's keeping people informed on a day-to-day basis. >> It is is just ridiculously what he does is ridiculously good. >> And there's another example that I'll quickly mention is the day that they were moving with the National Vergara came and he talked about being Yep. How he would not put them any place that he wasn't willing to go to. Yeah, it was one of those who had patent moments. >> It was it's, it's, it's amazing. >> But I would look, I would look at him and politics aside, I would look at what he's doing. >> I will look at how he's communicating. >> I will look at his approach. I will look at how he's delegating responsibilities to folks and how he responds to questions when he doesn't know the answer. >> I mean, he does he's just doing all the right things and, you know, time will tell if he's made all the right decisions. >> But I don't think that that's that should be, I don't think that's necessarily the standard or other criteria which leaders will be judged in situations where there's this much uncertainty and there's no row label is going to be how you lead. >> Excellent, excellent. Can you hear me now? >> I think I hit a tech problem. >> I'm sensitive to our time, so if you don't mind, I was going to share our information on CMEs. Everybody has it. Can you see? It doesn't seem to be technology, doesn't seem to be my friend here. >> In this moment, I stop sharing easily is your nope, I got it, right. >> And so for those of you who are on the screen right now, we do have CMI available to you. And if you're not able to see, I'm just going to tell it out loud to you right now. So you'll see get a follow up email from us with the information on that and the specific code for the meeting today, if you've already got the email from us, is 52070. Again, that's 52070 would be the code that you text to get your CMEs for today. So Christopher, thank you. I think this has been incredibly insightful. The feedback from the group here as they're going is just that this has been what they're dealing with and you have hit it right at the head while also giving them solutions or how to go forward. So I really appreciate your sharing your expertise today. >> Yeah, I I I'm happy to do it and I'm I'm happy to continue doing it. >> And so I look forward to seeing all of you who were part of the program. >> And for those of you who are thinking about your next steps, I do think that this is an opportunity, is really an opportunity. I think we're going to see seismic shifts in health care. >> That part of that shift will be folks like you taking charge a even more so than you already do, and having a real impact on our ability to manage these things better in the future and maybe even prevent them. >> Absolutely. >> Well, thank you all for the work that you're doing. >> Thank you, Christopher, for your work. Have a great day, everyone.

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